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	<title>Comments for John Vest</title>
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	<link>http://johnvest.com</link>
	<description>Posts from the Blog of an (un)Tamed Cynic</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 22 Feb 2012 23:28:26 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on Wasting God&#8217;s Time by Jeff Carter</title>
		<link>http://johnvest.com/2012/02/22/wasting-gods-time/#comment-5597</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Carter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Feb 2012 23:28:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johnvest.com/?p=2541#comment-5597</guid>
		<description>I spent some time in 4th today to try and rediscover.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I spent some time in 4th today to try and rediscover.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Unsustainable Bureaucracies by John</title>
		<link>http://johnvest.com/2012/02/22/unsustainable-bureaucracies/#comment-5593</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Feb 2012 21:29:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johnvest.com/?p=2534#comment-5593</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the Willimon quote, Matt. Great synchronicity with these ideas.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the Willimon quote, Matt. Great synchronicity with these ideas.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Unsustainable Bureaucracies by Matt Helms</title>
		<link>http://johnvest.com/2012/02/22/unsustainable-bureaucracies/#comment-5587</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Helms</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Feb 2012 17:30:37 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>A great post at the start of Lent, a time that is meant to be the springtime of our church.  I began my day with a reflection by William Willimon called &quot;Repent&quot; and it had some interesting parallels to this:

&quot;Like the prophets of old, John the Baptist&#039;s word strikes abrasively against the easy certainties of the religious establishment.  He will let us take no comfort in our rites, tradition, or ancestry.  Everybody must submit to be made over.  Everybody must descend into the waters, especially the religiously secure and sophisticated&quot;

In this time of Lent, I&#039;m going to be looking for new life in our denomination in the midst of death... then I&#039;m going to ask myself, &quot;What do I need to do to help this new life flourish?&quot;  I think all of your questions (to which I have no immediate answers) point in that direction...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A great post at the start of Lent, a time that is meant to be the springtime of our church.  I began my day with a reflection by William Willimon called &#8220;Repent&#8221; and it had some interesting parallels to this:</p>
<p>&#8220;Like the prophets of old, John the Baptist&#8217;s word strikes abrasively against the easy certainties of the religious establishment.  He will let us take no comfort in our rites, tradition, or ancestry.  Everybody must submit to be made over.  Everybody must descend into the waters, especially the religiously secure and sophisticated&#8221;</p>
<p>In this time of Lent, I&#8217;m going to be looking for new life in our denomination in the midst of death&#8230; then I&#8217;m going to ask myself, &#8220;What do I need to do to help this new life flourish?&#8221;  I think all of your questions (to which I have no immediate answers) point in that direction&#8230;</p>
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		<title>Comment on Will the PC(USA) Split in 2012? by A Detailed Analysis of Current Presbyterian Church (USA) Politics, Controversies and a Vision for the Future – Pomomusings</title>
		<link>http://johnvest.com/2011/12/27/will-the-pcusa-split-in-2012/#comment-5585</link>
		<dc:creator>A Detailed Analysis of Current Presbyterian Church (USA) Politics, Controversies and a Vision for the Future – Pomomusings</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Feb 2012 17:01:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johnvest.com/?p=2368#comment-5585</guid>
		<description>[...] Will the PC(USA) Split in 2012, by John Vest [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Will the PC(USA) Split in 2012, by John Vest [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Mid Councils Commission by Unsustainable Bureaucracies</title>
		<link>http://johnvest.com/mid-councils-commission/#comment-5584</link>
		<dc:creator>Unsustainable Bureaucracies</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Feb 2012 16:50:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johnvest.com/?page_id=2524#comment-5584</guid>
		<description>[...] This post comes directly from the PC(USA) Mid Councils Commission report (19-20). I wrote this for the &#8220;Changing Contexts&#8221; section of the report. I am posting discrete sections of our report as a means of generating conversation, so please make comments. At the end of this post, I have suggested some questions to stimulate your thinking. For a list of all the posts in this series, please follow this link. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] This post comes directly from the PC(USA) Mid Councils Commission report (19-20). I wrote this for the &#8220;Changing Contexts&#8221; section of the report. I am posting discrete sections of our report as a means of generating conversation, so please make comments. At the end of this post, I have suggested some questions to stimulate your thinking. For a list of all the posts in this series, please follow this link. [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Let&#8217;s Talk About the Mid Councils Commission by Jared</title>
		<link>http://johnvest.com/2012/02/20/lets-talk-about-the-mid-councils-commission/#comment-5581</link>
		<dc:creator>Jared</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Feb 2012 15:57:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johnvest.com/?p=2504#comment-5581</guid>
		<description>By the way - I live all of 15 minutes north of Dallas.  Should really find a way to connect while you&#039;re here.  And I can tell at least one or two good stories on our mutual friend Kurt.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By the way &#8211; I live all of 15 minutes north of Dallas.  Should really find a way to connect while you&#8217;re here.  And I can tell at least one or two good stories on our mutual friend Kurt.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Let&#8217;s Talk About the Mid Councils Commission by Jared</title>
		<link>http://johnvest.com/2012/02/20/lets-talk-about-the-mid-councils-commission/#comment-5580</link>
		<dc:creator>Jared</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Feb 2012 15:55:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johnvest.com/?p=2504#comment-5580</guid>
		<description>Again - I haven&#039;t finished reading through the report.  Sorry.  Not enough time in my life right now.

That being said, I would have liked the report to have at least proposed some measurable evaluation criteria.  This is, admittedly, the hardest part of being &quot;agile&quot;, and is the part that most organizations most often fail to handle well.  It forces you to describe the goals of your experimentation in concrete, meaningful ways.  It forces you to set real targets for your work.  It forces you to admit loudly and clearly that your work may fail.  And, most importantly, it gives everyone participating in the experimentation a common notion of what success looks like.  

Without a common notion of what success will look like, you often end up with an organization that looks alot like a basketball team practicing on those courts that have 6 or 8 goals along the sides as well as the ones on either end - and people shooting randomly at all the wrong hoops.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Again &#8211; I haven&#8217;t finished reading through the report.  Sorry.  Not enough time in my life right now.</p>
<p>That being said, I would have liked the report to have at least proposed some measurable evaluation criteria.  This is, admittedly, the hardest part of being &#8220;agile&#8221;, and is the part that most organizations most often fail to handle well.  It forces you to describe the goals of your experimentation in concrete, meaningful ways.  It forces you to set real targets for your work.  It forces you to admit loudly and clearly that your work may fail.  And, most importantly, it gives everyone participating in the experimentation a common notion of what success looks like.  </p>
<p>Without a common notion of what success will look like, you often end up with an organization that looks alot like a basketball team practicing on those courts that have 6 or 8 goals along the sides as well as the ones on either end &#8211; and people shooting randomly at all the wrong hoops.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Let&#8217;s Talk About the Mid Councils Commission by John</title>
		<link>http://johnvest.com/2012/02/20/lets-talk-about-the-mid-councils-commission/#comment-5576</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Feb 2012 13:15:43 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>In response to your points:
1. Our proposal asks for the 222nd GA to determine the evaluation process. After a few years of the experimentation, they will be in a better position to design an evaluation.
2. Part of experimentation is a willingness to fail. There will be failures for sure. As for harm, I think our awareness of those potential harms came out in our debates over the proposal. You&#039;ll hear more about that down the road.
3. Our proposal does indeed have safety measures. First, the potential for non-geographic presbyteries is limited to a relatively close region. The most important protection is the fact that this experiment has a definite end point. It is only temporary and provisional. If the church realizes that this is a big mistake, the experiment does not need to continue or become permanent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In response to your points:<br />
1. Our proposal asks for the 222nd GA to determine the evaluation process. After a few years of the experimentation, they will be in a better position to design an evaluation.<br />
2. Part of experimentation is a willingness to fail. There will be failures for sure. As for harm, I think our awareness of those potential harms came out in our debates over the proposal. You&#8217;ll hear more about that down the road.<br />
3. Our proposal does indeed have safety measures. First, the potential for non-geographic presbyteries is limited to a relatively close region. The most important protection is the fact that this experiment has a definite end point. It is only temporary and provisional. If the church realizes that this is a big mistake, the experiment does not need to continue or become permanent.</p>
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		<title>Comment on A Denomination in Decline by John</title>
		<link>http://johnvest.com/2012/02/20/a-denomination-in-decline/#comment-5575</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Feb 2012 13:09:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johnvest.com/?p=2520#comment-5575</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Jerry. I hope that the initiatives in place to get new pastors into small churches are fruitful. From what you&#039;ve said, it sounds like we need a wider conversation about this throughout the church.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Jerry. I hope that the initiatives in place to get new pastors into small churches are fruitful. From what you&#8217;ve said, it sounds like we need a wider conversation about this throughout the church.</p>
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		<title>Comment on A Denomination in Decline by John</title>
		<link>http://johnvest.com/2012/02/20/a-denomination-in-decline/#comment-5574</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Feb 2012 13:06:36 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I appreciate you sharing this, KC. I&#039;m hoping to hear more from pastors of small churches. because that is a part of our collective experience that I am not very familiar with. Thanks for your faithfulness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I appreciate you sharing this, KC. I&#8217;m hoping to hear more from pastors of small churches. because that is a part of our collective experience that I am not very familiar with. Thanks for your faithfulness.</p>
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