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	<title>Comments on: A 21st Century Youth Conference</title>
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	<description>Posts from the Blog of an (un)Tamed Cynic</description>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://johnvest.com/2010/07/27/a-21st-century-youth-conference/#comment-245</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jul 2010 21:43:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johnvest.com/?p=465#comment-245</guid>
		<description>@Erica: Thanks.  I love the airplane metaphor.  I totally agree that we need all perspectives in the church in order to be healthy and productive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Erica: Thanks.  I love the airplane metaphor.  I totally agree that we need all perspectives in the church in order to be healthy and productive.</p>
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		<title>By: Erica</title>
		<link>http://johnvest.com/2010/07/27/a-21st-century-youth-conference/#comment-244</link>
		<dc:creator>Erica</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jul 2010 17:48:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johnvest.com/?p=465#comment-244</guid>
		<description>John, I am basically right there with you on all of this. Except that I know I have a higher Christology that you do. Which is fine. I think God&#039;s loves us both and I&#039;m glad to be in a  denomination where its OK for there to be some variety. (Also, on a lighter note, that picture in the last post, those are MY KIDS!!! holding up the &quot;That&#039;s what Jesus said&quot; sign. I think they thought it was ironic!)

So here&#039;s my two cents:

First, the sheer size of the worship gatherings was worth something, I think. It helps us know that we are not alone, even we don&#039;t agree with everybody in the room. And maybe that&#039;s the most valuable part of the experience, that we don&#039;t agree with everyone in the room. My church polity professor at the very Reformed but not Presbyterian seminary where I went used to say: &quot;The church, like an airplane, needs both its left and right wings to fly.&quot;

Second, I worry most of all that we can&#039;t replicate the sort of bass-thumping, 500o person excitement in those worship services. What does that mean when you go home? So we have to find other ways that youth meet God. At the risk of getting roped into doing more at Presbytery retreats, I agree that we need to do a better job of trying to teach spiritual practices than making people sit through long lectures and worship. I don&#039;t have the attention span for that, either. (Although, interesting side note: in my small group, the youth said that one thing they were taking away from triennium was a desire to go to church more often when they got home. I challenged them, pointing that I was pretty sure their churches didn&#039;t do worship like we were doing it that week. It seemed that the style of worship wasn&#039;t the point...it was connecting with God&#039;s people and worshipping with them. As if to prove this point, almost everyone of my youth group who went to triennium, none of whom were in my small group, showed up at worship on Sunday morning. And did energizers in the back before worship began...)

Finally, I&#039;m annoyed with some of the critical comments that were leveled against you because there ARE conservative, thoughtful, and THOROUGHLY Reformed folks who really do agree with the majority of what you are saying. My John Calvin bobble head is knodding &quot;yes!&quot; as I write this. To set up what you are saying as a particularly liberal statement and then dismiss it because of that is simple theologically lazy.

Thank you for saying this...it helps me clarify much of what I&#039;ve been thinking as well.  I probably sit more in the middle of the airplane, but I&#039;m more than thrilled that you are balancing us out on the left wing!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John, I am basically right there with you on all of this. Except that I know I have a higher Christology that you do. Which is fine. I think God&#8217;s loves us both and I&#8217;m glad to be in a  denomination where its OK for there to be some variety. (Also, on a lighter note, that picture in the last post, those are MY KIDS!!! holding up the &#8220;That&#8217;s what Jesus said&#8221; sign. I think they thought it was ironic!)</p>
<p>So here&#8217;s my two cents:</p>
<p>First, the sheer size of the worship gatherings was worth something, I think. It helps us know that we are not alone, even we don&#8217;t agree with everybody in the room. And maybe that&#8217;s the most valuable part of the experience, that we don&#8217;t agree with everyone in the room. My church polity professor at the very Reformed but not Presbyterian seminary where I went used to say: &#8220;The church, like an airplane, needs both its left and right wings to fly.&#8221;</p>
<p>Second, I worry most of all that we can&#8217;t replicate the sort of bass-thumping, 500o person excitement in those worship services. What does that mean when you go home? So we have to find other ways that youth meet God. At the risk of getting roped into doing more at Presbytery retreats, I agree that we need to do a better job of trying to teach spiritual practices than making people sit through long lectures and worship. I don&#8217;t have the attention span for that, either. (Although, interesting side note: in my small group, the youth said that one thing they were taking away from triennium was a desire to go to church more often when they got home. I challenged them, pointing that I was pretty sure their churches didn&#8217;t do worship like we were doing it that week. It seemed that the style of worship wasn&#8217;t the point&#8230;it was connecting with God&#8217;s people and worshipping with them. As if to prove this point, almost everyone of my youth group who went to triennium, none of whom were in my small group, showed up at worship on Sunday morning. And did energizers in the back before worship began&#8230;)</p>
<p>Finally, I&#8217;m annoyed with some of the critical comments that were leveled against you because there ARE conservative, thoughtful, and THOROUGHLY Reformed folks who really do agree with the majority of what you are saying. My John Calvin bobble head is knodding &#8220;yes!&#8221; as I write this. To set up what you are saying as a particularly liberal statement and then dismiss it because of that is simple theologically lazy.</p>
<p>Thank you for saying this&#8230;it helps me clarify much of what I&#8217;ve been thinking as well.  I probably sit more in the middle of the airplane, but I&#8217;m more than thrilled that you are balancing us out on the left wing!</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Ferguson</title>
		<link>http://johnvest.com/2010/07/27/a-21st-century-youth-conference/#comment-243</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Ferguson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jul 2010 11:56:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johnvest.com/?p=465#comment-243</guid>
		<description>I can&#039;t find in your post how much time was given to small groups at this year&#039;s event.

Yes, some seem to think one must go &quot;x&quot; long for such a worship time to &quot;count&quot; and sometimes it is as simple a reason as those who are leading the worship (sometimes the musicians) are never in front of such a large group so they are pumped up and want to &quot;make the most of it&quot;.   It is a great experience for many youth who are from smallish churches and never go to such events to find themselves in this huge crowd of peers singing praise to God.

Many orthodox evangelicals (like myself)---not all but many of us----no longer even consider sending the youth from the church where we serve to the Triennium or most other youth events sponsored by our denomination (as some others in the previous post mentioned) as we have had youth being taught things contrary to orthodox faith---and sometimes things contrary to our own denomination&#039;s stance.  As long as we do not have a bare bones statement of basic beliefs that leaders of such events must affirm, this will remain so.  It may well be some of the orthodox evangelical churches in Chicago presbytery (where you are) do not send their youth to presbytery sponsored youth events for that very reason.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can&#8217;t find in your post how much time was given to small groups at this year&#8217;s event.</p>
<p>Yes, some seem to think one must go &#8220;x&#8221; long for such a worship time to &#8220;count&#8221; and sometimes it is as simple a reason as those who are leading the worship (sometimes the musicians) are never in front of such a large group so they are pumped up and want to &#8220;make the most of it&#8221;.   It is a great experience for many youth who are from smallish churches and never go to such events to find themselves in this huge crowd of peers singing praise to God.</p>
<p>Many orthodox evangelicals (like myself)&#8212;not all but many of us&#8212;-no longer even consider sending the youth from the church where we serve to the Triennium or most other youth events sponsored by our denomination (as some others in the previous post mentioned) as we have had youth being taught things contrary to orthodox faith&#8212;and sometimes things contrary to our own denomination&#8217;s stance.  As long as we do not have a bare bones statement of basic beliefs that leaders of such events must affirm, this will remain so.  It may well be some of the orthodox evangelical churches in Chicago presbytery (where you are) do not send their youth to presbytery sponsored youth events for that very reason.</p>
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		<title>By: Balinda</title>
		<link>http://johnvest.com/2010/07/27/a-21st-century-youth-conference/#comment-242</link>
		<dc:creator>Balinda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jul 2010 00:48:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johnvest.com/?p=465#comment-242</guid>
		<description>Our small group became a safe place to talk about difficult subjects.  The youth talked about thinking there were too many energizers, and to much rock music. Each of them seemed to relate to a different preacher. Each one got something different out of the worship service.  It does tell you something that they were waiting in line for over an hour to get in to worship to get good seats.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Our small group became a safe place to talk about difficult subjects.  The youth talked about thinking there were too many energizers, and to much rock music. Each of them seemed to relate to a different preacher. Each one got something different out of the worship service.  It does tell you something that they were waiting in line for over an hour to get in to worship to get good seats.</p>
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		<title>By: rocky</title>
		<link>http://johnvest.com/2010/07/27/a-21st-century-youth-conference/#comment-241</link>
		<dc:creator>rocky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jul 2010 20:44:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johnvest.com/?p=465#comment-241</guid>
		<description>the SG experience was superb, no doubt, and a great deal of life was springing up everywhere when participants were allowed to connect on their own. i think the huge spectacle of the two hour worship had an important role, though, too. The enormity of the worship gatherings are pastorally valuable, I think. Especially for kids whose faith experience isolates them from school peers or who come from small churches in rural settings. the sense of communion in the worship was valuable, even if it came through the media of energizers and feaux-grunge rock music</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>the SG experience was superb, no doubt, and a great deal of life was springing up everywhere when participants were allowed to connect on their own. i think the huge spectacle of the two hour worship had an important role, though, too. The enormity of the worship gatherings are pastorally valuable, I think. Especially for kids whose faith experience isolates them from school peers or who come from small churches in rural settings. the sense of communion in the worship was valuable, even if it came through the media of energizers and feaux-grunge rock music</p>
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		<title>By: Tweets that mention A 21st Century Youth Conference &#124; John Vest -- Topsy.com</title>
		<link>http://johnvest.com/2010/07/27/a-21st-century-youth-conference/#comment-240</link>
		<dc:creator>Tweets that mention A 21st Century Youth Conference &#124; John Vest -- Topsy.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jul 2010 17:47:48 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Adam WC, John Vest. John Vest said: New blog post: A 21st Century Youth Conference http://johnvest.com/?p=465 [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Adam WC, John Vest. John Vest said: New blog post: A 21st Century Youth Conference <a href="http://johnvest.com/?p=465" rel="nofollow">http://johnvest.com/?p=465</a> [...]</p>
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		<title>By: beau</title>
		<link>http://johnvest.com/2010/07/27/a-21st-century-youth-conference/#comment-239</link>
		<dc:creator>beau</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jul 2010 17:31:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johnvest.com/?p=465#comment-239</guid>
		<description>Really good thoughts. I also believe small groups are enormously more successful than stadium worship events. Two things come to mind though. How do we minister to youth who connect with God more through music and drama? Would a sense of awe and solidarity be minimized without these mega gatherings?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Really good thoughts. I also believe small groups are enormously more successful than stadium worship events. Two things come to mind though. How do we minister to youth who connect with God more through music and drama? Would a sense of awe and solidarity be minimized without these mega gatherings?</p>
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